It’s complicated. Ultimately, it revolves around the difference between forgiveness and impunity.
Forgiveness is a two-way process which requires the active participation of both parties. If the one to be forgiven is not treated as a responsible adult and expected to reflect on the harm their past behaviour did and what they can do to make future episodes of harm less likely, then what one is proposing is impunity, not forgiveness.
There is also the role of active participation. Actively participating in an evil is different than simply voting for it, perhaps (and in many cases) unwittingly (even if foolishly). Voting stupidly is not a crime*. Active, knowing participation in (and profiting from) criminal activities is another matter entirely. There should be no escape from accountability and consequences. If there is allowed to be, there is a lesson in all this: Trumpist-style politics is successful, personal profitable, and it works. As such, expect to see more of the same going forward.
At the same time, as a libertarian leftist who has studied the genesis of many authoritarian leftist movements, it seems clear to me that refusing to forgive those to whom forgiveness is due appears to be at the root of many tragic misadventures in left-wing authoritarianism.
* And former supporters of a cause you oppose seeking offramps is part of what winning looks like. Best to take the W and welcome the political realignments.
Thanks for your comment, David. Does your statement mean that we can not welcome back people with guilt? What is the line between those with guilt of "active participation" vs. unknowing voting?
I fear that these definitions that are backwards looking will damage our future.
My concern about the continued focus on the current puppet in the White House is just that - he’s a puppet of the elite oligarchs who fully control both sides of the aisle in D.C.
So long as most Americans keep playing the sophomoric Uniparty game of Democrat versus Republican, we will all remain on the losing end.
For example, all those presently frothing at the mouth to replace Republicans with Democrats at the mid-terms - if those elections are allowed to occur- will still leave us losing because the Democrats will continue, among many other things, rapid implementation of the digital control grid upon all Americans.
Depending on which surveys one recognizes, somewhere between ~44% and ~55% of Americans now identify as Independent voters.
One potentially viable solution, instead of ranting and raving at No Kings protests every few weeks, is to do what’s being done in states like Montana - we are recruiting Independent Party candidates and we are actively supporting them instead of more of the same Uniparty candidates who remain beholden to their equally corrupt party machines instead of those of us who [foolishly] elected them.
More of us need to stop complaining and become part of the solution. We have ended up with the current White House administration because of decades of inattention, neglect, and overall voter apathy. We need to take off the rose-colored glasses and stop claiming that everything was ‘wonderful’ until Trump was elected.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
Let’s all put on our big boy and big girl pants and implement lasting solutions so we can resuscitate our once-great nation before it’s too late.
Well done, Joel! (Sorry I'm late to the party.) My thoughts/feelings are going to sound a little simple-minded I fear.
If someone truly sees the light, they should be welcomed. That said, there are many who don't like Trump but like his policies. There are many who don't like Trump but won't vote for a Democrat (which amounts to the same thing). So the statistics about Trump, specifically, should be taken with a grain of salt, I'm afraid. But my overall feeling is that we should be looking for commonalities.
If we meet a MAGA who sees Trump for the personality disorder that he is, that is a commonality. It gives us a chance to chat about something and get to know each other better, to realize The Other is human and shares many similarities with us. My feelings about people who vote oppressively isn't rage, it is curiosity (paired with disappointment and disbelief). Why don't they see what I see? Many live what we would call "good lives." They help out in their community, love their children, give to charities. And they vote for Trump. Their political beliefs are a mystery that we won't solve or change by snarling at them. I think a lot of it just has to do with where they live and which channel everyone there watches on TV. They believe what they are told. Just like we do.
Spot on, Joel. Hating the haters is still hate.
Can we move on from venting about what we don’t want toward striving for what we do want?
It’s complicated. Ultimately, it revolves around the difference between forgiveness and impunity.
Forgiveness is a two-way process which requires the active participation of both parties. If the one to be forgiven is not treated as a responsible adult and expected to reflect on the harm their past behaviour did and what they can do to make future episodes of harm less likely, then what one is proposing is impunity, not forgiveness.
There is also the role of active participation. Actively participating in an evil is different than simply voting for it, perhaps (and in many cases) unwittingly (even if foolishly). Voting stupidly is not a crime*. Active, knowing participation in (and profiting from) criminal activities is another matter entirely. There should be no escape from accountability and consequences. If there is allowed to be, there is a lesson in all this: Trumpist-style politics is successful, personal profitable, and it works. As such, expect to see more of the same going forward.
At the same time, as a libertarian leftist who has studied the genesis of many authoritarian leftist movements, it seems clear to me that refusing to forgive those to whom forgiveness is due appears to be at the root of many tragic misadventures in left-wing authoritarianism.
* And former supporters of a cause you oppose seeking offramps is part of what winning looks like. Best to take the W and welcome the political realignments.
Thanks for your comment, David. Does your statement mean that we can not welcome back people with guilt? What is the line between those with guilt of "active participation" vs. unknowing voting?
I fear that these definitions that are backwards looking will damage our future.
Well said, Mr. Barker!
My concern about the continued focus on the current puppet in the White House is just that - he’s a puppet of the elite oligarchs who fully control both sides of the aisle in D.C.
So long as most Americans keep playing the sophomoric Uniparty game of Democrat versus Republican, we will all remain on the losing end.
For example, all those presently frothing at the mouth to replace Republicans with Democrats at the mid-terms - if those elections are allowed to occur- will still leave us losing because the Democrats will continue, among many other things, rapid implementation of the digital control grid upon all Americans.
Depending on which surveys one recognizes, somewhere between ~44% and ~55% of Americans now identify as Independent voters.
One potentially viable solution, instead of ranting and raving at No Kings protests every few weeks, is to do what’s being done in states like Montana - we are recruiting Independent Party candidates and we are actively supporting them instead of more of the same Uniparty candidates who remain beholden to their equally corrupt party machines instead of those of us who [foolishly] elected them.
More of us need to stop complaining and become part of the solution. We have ended up with the current White House administration because of decades of inattention, neglect, and overall voter apathy. We need to take off the rose-colored glasses and stop claiming that everything was ‘wonderful’ until Trump was elected.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
Let’s all put on our big boy and big girl pants and implement lasting solutions so we can resuscitate our once-great nation before it’s too late.
Well done, Joel! (Sorry I'm late to the party.) My thoughts/feelings are going to sound a little simple-minded I fear.
If someone truly sees the light, they should be welcomed. That said, there are many who don't like Trump but like his policies. There are many who don't like Trump but won't vote for a Democrat (which amounts to the same thing). So the statistics about Trump, specifically, should be taken with a grain of salt, I'm afraid. But my overall feeling is that we should be looking for commonalities.
If we meet a MAGA who sees Trump for the personality disorder that he is, that is a commonality. It gives us a chance to chat about something and get to know each other better, to realize The Other is human and shares many similarities with us. My feelings about people who vote oppressively isn't rage, it is curiosity (paired with disappointment and disbelief). Why don't they see what I see? Many live what we would call "good lives." They help out in their community, love their children, give to charities. And they vote for Trump. Their political beliefs are a mystery that we won't solve or change by snarling at them. I think a lot of it just has to do with where they live and which channel everyone there watches on TV. They believe what they are told. Just like we do.